Why Money Gets Messy in Private Practice (And How to Clean It Up) | IP 180

This week, I’m sharing something I’ve never done on the podcast before: a replay of an interview I did as a guest on Joe Sanok’s show, The Practice of the Practice.
 
In this conversation, Joe and I first did a quick walk through of my 7 Pillars framework - the foundation I use to help practice owners build a business that’s clear, solid, and sustainable. 

And then (because Joe is Joe 😄) we did a deep dive into the money side of it all: pricing, rates, and the mindset stuff that gets in the way.
 
If you’re craving a clearer way to think about what’s working in your practice - and what needs attention next - you’re going to love this one.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• A simple overview of the 7 Pillars of an Ideal Practice, including the aspect that matters most about each.
• Better ways to think about your ‘product’ (and why an ‘hour a week’ isn’t the only option).
• How building in certain systems can save your sanity as a practice owner.
• Why payment is about soooo much more than your fee (and the hidden clinical cost of not handling it well.)

Plus, I’ve got a sweet deal for you on my popular course, Mind Over Money.

So join Joe and I for a fun (and eye opening) conversation about how to sustain your private practice in a much better way.

~Wendy

P.S.  If you want a quick way to review your own practice through the lens of the 7 Pillars, grab the IP360 Scorecard. It’s free, it takes about 10 minutes, and it’ll show you where your biggest stress points are right now. Link is in the show notes.

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TODAY’S GUEST:  Me! 😉

I’m sharing the audio today from my appearance as a guest on Practice of the Practice with Joe Sanok. Joe is a podcaster, consultant, and practice owner who helps therapists build businesses they love. He has supported thousands of clinicians through training, consulting, and resources for private practice owners.

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MENTIONED

• Joe Sanok: A Story of Business Success, True Worth and Personal Evolution | IP 170
• The Practice Academy by Joe Sanok. Note: This is not an affiliate link, but please do mention my name as the person who referred you if you reach out to them. Thank you. 
• The IP 360 Scorecard

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FEELING SQUIRMY about CHARGING for YOUR SERVICES??

Sign up for my course, MIND OVER MONEY. Learn more about it here, and use the promo code ‘Joe’ at checkout, to get it over 50% off! 

Transcript

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 0:00

You're listening to Ideal Practice, episode number 180. Today, guys, I've got a treat for you. I'm gonna share with you something I have never done before. This is a recording of an interview that I did with someone else. Back in the fall, I was interviewed by Joe Sannock on his ever so popular podcast, The Practice of the Practice. And we did a really great overview of the seven pillars and why you need to understand this framework for your successful, sustainable, unique ideal practice. You're gonna love this. So stay tuned. Hi, I'm Wendy Pitts Reeves, and with over two decades of experience in the private practice world, I've built my six-figure business while learning a lot of lessons the hard way. This is the first podcast that shows you how to apply the principles of energy, alignment, and strategy to build a practice that is profit-centered, but people forward. This is the Ideal Practice Podcast. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Ideal Practice Podcast. This is Wendy, Wendy Pitts Reeves, your host, and I'm so excited to be hanging out with you again today. I feel like we are kind of getting back into it, which feels really good. If you've been with me for a while, then you know that over the last couple of months I've been doing things a little bit different. We sort of slowed down the schedule a little bit, but we are picking things back up. We are moving into 2026, into this new season with some excitement, and it feels really good to be getting back into it. And today's episode is no exception. There's a reason why I wanted to use this to really kick us off for real. So if you follow Ideal Practice, then you may remember that back in episode 170, I was honored to host Joe Sannock as a guest here on the show. Joe is the host and therapist behind the Practice of the Practice podcast and all the things that go with it. Joe was one of the first people to move into this space in terms of offering uh coaching and business counseling and advice for practice owners. He is the go-to guy and such a delightful human being, really. I loved that episode. It was it was a really good conversation. I think I mean, you know, I don't know. I'm probably biased here, but I feel like I asked him a few things that most people don't. And we did kind of a deep dive into his evolution as a business owner, which was a powerful story and really, really interesting. If you haven't heard that, I definitely invite you to go back and check that out. I'll be sure and link it in the show in the show notes so you can find it easily. After that, though, Joe and I hit it off so well that he in turn invited me to come on his show, The Practice of the Practice, and we did that. And then it was such a great conversation that he agreed to let me use that audio to share with you here. And I loved it because what we got to do in that conversation was an overview of the seven pillars of an ideal practice. Now I know you guys are used to that. I've talked about that a fair amount here, but this was such an excellent conversation around the things that make this framework work, including some really interesting points around the way we all approach money, the way we think about it, the way we work with it, the way we deal with it, the way it impacts our therapeutic approach. And I really thought this was good. I think it was one of the best conversations I've had with someone about this. So I am thrilled to share it with you here. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. I hope you'll come back to it from time to time if you need kind of a refresher on what this is all about. And be sure and stick around to the end because at the end I share with Joe an opportunity to get your hands on a course that I have called Mind Over Money that's going to help you too, that people love. I haven't offered it in a long time, but I brought that back out for this conversation, and I think you might like that too. So without further ado, let's get into my interview with Joe.

Joe Sanok: 4:35

I'm Joe Sanock, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast, where we help you build a thriving private practice that you absolutely love. You know, it's interesting. Um, I was just talking to someone in one of our um mastermind groups today, and we were talking about how you move forward and how you think through different things. And money issues was one of the things that they felt really bad about. They felt bad about raising their rates. They felt bad about dropping insurances that weren't working for them. I mean, I remember when my very first clinician from my private practice, I said, Steve, I think we need to move you over $100 a session. And he almost had a heart attack. And so today I'm so excited that we have Wendy Pitts Reeves with us, who uh is a seasoned therapist, speaker, and coach for private practice owners, host of Ideal Practice Podcast. She helps clinicians build sustainable, joyful businesses by transforming their relationship with money and boundaries. Drawing on over 25 years in practice, Wendy teaches her signature framework, the seven pillars of an ideal practice, helping therapists stop feeling guilty about earning well and start creating practices they truly love. Fun fact Wendy also attended the very first Killinite camp that we hosted in Colorado and had goat yoga. So welcome, Wendy.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 5:52

Goat yoga. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Joe. This is a treat.

Joe Sanok: 5:57

Yeah, yeah. Glad that you're here. And uh, you know, it's funny because um I was referencing that mastermind group uh in the intro, and that idea also of collaboration between people doing similar work to me is just how I operate. You know, the fact that you help people in private practice and grow, to me, we're much stronger being friends than sharing ideas and resources because there's gonna be people that want to work with you differently than maybe people that want to work with me. And I was just talking to someone uh on a webinar we were hosting, and she had reached out to a therapist that literally was in her hallway. She's a new therapist. She reached out to this person to say, Hey, I want to refer people to you if they aren't a fit, just wanted to connect. And this person said, No, you are my competition. I am not going to share anything with you. And I thought, run away from that therapist. Don't even try to collaborate because if you have that mindset, like that you're always going to feel like you're in competition and feel bad about yourself. So I'm so excited, Wendy, that you had me on your show. We did the reverse podcast of that episode. Um, that was just back. Uh, let me just look at that. That was episode 1291. So just like a week ago. So welcome to the show, Wendy.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 7:05

Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. I I don't really believe in competition. That is the definition of lack mindset. Um, and that is the absolute worst way to approach a private practice. What a story. And what a great way to start. You know.

unknown: 7:19

Jeez.

Joe Sanok: 7:19

Well, I want to briefly go through your seven pillars. I know that you have lots of teachings around this that people can go to, but I want to just go through these seven pillars of an ideal practice. And then for most of the show, I want to talk about money because I think that you and I both agree that money mindset is one of those things that therapists have a really hard time thinking about and talking about. So we'll spend most of our time on that. But take us through the seven pillars just so people have a big picture idea of what those are.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 7:43

Sure, sure. So the whole reason I have this is because it's easy to think that there's one thing that's going to make your private practice work, and that's not true. Like it really, there really is kind of a whole foundation that you have to have in place for a successful business, right? And having been in practice for a very, very, very, very long time, I've learned through trial and error and lots of experience over the years that all of this matters. So it kind of comes down to these seven things. And they are, I put them in a certain order for a reason. The first one is purpose. What is the purpose? What and I don't mean why do you want to help the people you mean you that you serve. I mean why do you even want to own a business at all? Because this is not for the faint of heart. You need to be clear about that. The second one is people. Once you know why you want to own a business, then I want to know who do you want to serve and why do you want to serve them? And if you you've got this nailed down, you will know who your ideal client is inside and out. You'll know them better than they know themselves. You'll know what drives them, you know what worries them, and you know what serves them. This is really important. From there, okay, I know who I want to help and I know why, and I know why I want to do this crazy thing. How are you gonna help them? What's the product? Now, it for most of us, we think of it's an hour a week in a therapy session, but it can be so much more than that. How do you serve these people that you have identified? It needs to be an irresistible offer that gives them the results that they're craving. Once you've got all that figured out, what's the process? What are the systems? How do you make how do you run this business that you've got? Do you have systems in place that make it easier? Easier for your clients, easier for your team if you have one, easier for yourself so that you're not reinventing the wheel every day and you can actually enjoy the work that you're doing. All of that is the foundation. And now I'm getting to the one that we both want to talk about, which is payment. That's pillar number five. And I keep wanting to call it profit, but I always go back to payment because it really is how you get paid, what you get paid, when you get paid, what you do with what you get paid, all of the all of the many things around money, which are so loaded for all of us. And I I have worked with a lot of people who will tell me they have a healthy pricing structure, and then we start digging into the details, and I find out that they do not. So there's lots around that. And then pillar number six, now that you've got all that figured out, how do you tell people where you are? How do your people find you? Those people who would benefit so much from being in your world, how do you connect with them? So that's promotion. And then the last one is more important than any of them, and that is I use the word perspective. I mean how you think about things, the mindset you bring to the work. Because you can have all the best strategy in the world, all the tactics, all the details figured out. But if your mindset is wonky, you will self-sabotage every time. So that's in a very quick 10-second nutshell.

Joe Sanok: 10:30

What all I love about purpose is that so often it's like, what's the impact you want to make on the world? It's like a mission statement. But I love how you say you need to know why you're doing this. And um, I just started um, we're doing this podcast series where I'm starting a private practice from scratch and I'm doing it live and um spending only two hours a week on it. And so I'm reporting out kind of the two hours that I'm spending on it um each week. Um, and the idea, like from the beginning, is I want to see if I can build a private practice that I don't do clinical work in that within five years is positioned to sell. And so I'm interviewing people from the beginning around selling, like what do they look for in a practice that that they buy? What like what does automation look like? That I'm really viewing it as this project to just try to have the purpose fuel sure some money into my life, but also to do this publicly. And so I love that you start with not the typical mission-driven kind of thing, but why are you even starting this business? I think that's such a great place to start.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 11:29

Yeah. Yeah. Because it so that goes to thinking like a business owner, right? Which we don't do. We don't start off there. It takes a while to grow into that did for me anyway. So that's that's a very cool project you got going there. I love that. Yeah.

Joe Sanok: 11:42

Yeah, yeah. We'll see how it lands. Oh, yeah. I definitely have that beginner mind again where it's like, oh, like, should I do this or should I do that? I think I know how to do this.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 11:50

Do I know how to do this? Yeah.

Joe Sanok: 11:51

But a lot of decisions to make, you know, along the way. Well, let's talk with the you said um payment. Let's talk about the problem, yeah, the problems with payment. Like, what are the money mindsets? What are the things that we usually do wrong in private practice when it comes to payment?

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 12:06

Yeah, the I really like to dig into this because this too, I have a different way of thinking about it. So we talk about money mindset all the time. That's a word, a phrase that gets thrown around a lot. And we talk about lack versus abundance and all those kinds of things. But the piece that I think nobody ever talks about is that money, the money aspect of your business is a therapeutic issue. It affects the work you're doing with your clients. And we don't talk about that in grad school, do we? Talk about, you know, that whole concept about the relationship is the thing, what happens in the consulting room, everything that happens in the room is fuel for the for the work, right? Well, that also includes getting paid. And we tend to we sort of cut that off in a way. It's like we amputate that from our awareness as clinicians. And I feel like that does a disservice not only to us, but to our clients. So I had a I had a coach, um, a lovely coach that I worked with for a very long time, that one of the first things I ever heard her say at a live event was, she said, Your purpose may be to make the world a better place, but the purpose of your business is to make money. That was Christine Kane that said that. And oh I I can remember feeling like I had been pinned to the wall when she said that because I was like, Oh, wow, okay. So that's a whole nother you're yeah, you're right. Um the bottom line is that you have to do well to do any good, period. And your business, your business is not going to be a business if you're treating it like a nonprofit, right? Or like a volunteer project. So in my work, I say that our practices need to be profit-centered and people forward, meaning that healthy pricing structure, that healthy payment system, all of that is critical to your success and it impacts your work. And let me tell you, I'll tell you a very quick, very funny story. So when I started my private practice, I had been the family therapy director of a residential treatment center working with really tough kids. I know you and I have that in common, right? We we both started. But when I started my practice, I hated the whole idea of having to deal with money. And I literally physically did not want to touch it. This tells you how old I am. Back then, everybody paid with cash or check. And I actually had my husband at the time built for me a little wooden box with a slit in the top, which we nailed to the wall down the hall around the corner from my office. And when clients would say to me, What do I owe you for today? I would say, Oh, you know, I don't know what I haven't got that figured out yet, you know, with your insurance and all that. Just write a check for whatever you think your copay is going to be, and you can just drop it in that box on down the hall. I literally did that because I did not want it in the room with me and my client. I felt like it was somehow another damaging or poisoning our relationship, which was so wrong. Like I could, I mean, it it it's funny and not funny at this at the same time, but that's where I started, right? The problem was I did not know two important things at that very, very, I was in my early 30s at the time. What I did not know was I did not know how to think like a business owner, first of all. At all. I had no idea at all. And the second thing was I did not know that the money aspect of my relationship with my clients was every bit as much as a part of the therapy as anything else we ever did. There are very specific ways that money impacts our work. And what most people will say is, yeah, my clients don't have it, I can't help them. You know, like that's where we go. But it's like so much more than that. We complain a lot about insurance, we complain a lot about economy, but it's the ways that this influences our work is much more subtle. And there are two or three in particular that I see all the time that I'd love to share if you if you want to hear those.

Joe Sanok: 15:54

I would love it. That'd be great.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 15:55

Okay, great, good. The first one is the common one that we often think about. We we those of us who coach run into this all the time, and that is that we charge too little, right? Your prices are too low. Um when we are undercharging, and and y'all, I want to say, even if you take insurance, it kind of doesn't matter. Your rate is your rate. If you contract with an insurance company, you're gonna get whatever they're willing to pay you, but your rate is still your rate, okay? If you are undercharging, what you are modeling for your clients is your own sense of self-esteem. So you are either showing them a healthy sense of self, a healthy self-confidence or not, a healthy level of self-respect or not. Right?

Joe Sanok: 16:41

Yeah, and I I got a comment there. You just the other day I was doing a pre-consulting call with a guy, and we walked through him growing his group practice, adding, I think, two or three people to it. We ran the numbers. It was gonna bring in 10 to 15 grand a month extra, probably within three or four months. And when it came time to tell him my my monthly retainer rate, um, he laughed at me. Like he was like, Are you kidding me? Um, and it was really interesting how five years ago I would have been like, let me drop it by a few hundred dollars. Let me kind of negotiate with him. Um, but I'm like, if that's not in your budget right now, we have the Practice Academy, which is $195 a month. You're not going to be able to move as fast. You won't get the individual attention. It's a great program for people that really are thinking about the budget over the speed or the and the price. Um, and just said that with confidence. And um, he was like, Well, make the case for me. And I'm like, Well, we we ran the numbers and within just a couple months, we will probably be making about 15 grand a month, you know, based on you know, adding these extra clinicians in there. To me, that would be a no-brainer for my business, but that may not be for yours. Um, and it just wasn't a like, I'm gonna try to like beg him to make this decision. It was clear that by his laugh that he hadn't read through all of our materials that do the price prepping, kind of give the range, give all that stuff, and talk about the return on investment. But you're absolutely right that that like standing in, no, this is my price. This is I don't want to show up and be resentful for you because I gave you half off because you can't think about my invest your investment. So I love that you start with that.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 18:15

It's so important. So, what you were doing is you were modeling for him your belief in yourself, which comes with years of experience, which is all very well documented, and you've got numbers to back it up. Like, look, dude, this is you know, for this, you can get this. Like, what's not to love about that? But what I see in a lot of therapists is especially if you're doing self-pay, or if let's say you've got a client that their insurance changes and they they're it's not gonna cover anymore, there's some reason why you've got to talk to them about what they're gonna pay. Your first instinct when they hesitate is to cut your rate, right? There's so many games we play around this all the time. So you're but but when you do that, what you are telling your client is you don't believe in yourself. And if you don't believe in yourself, why should they? So that underpaid, that's a really, really important place to start. I want to own, I want everybody to own that, okay? Because you're modeling for your clients. And Lord knows we want them to believe in themselves. So why don't we do the same? Right.

Joe Sanok: 19:11

The second I want to ask you about raising those rates because this is something we do frequently in the Practice Academy, where we'll be in one of our live sessions and someone will say, I'm completely full and I'm charging 135 and I have a wait list. And they're like proud of it. And almost always the conversation goes raise your rates to 175. And they're they have a flip in their stomach where they're like, Oh my gosh, that's too much. I'm using people, and all the money stuff comes out. Um, and then I often will say to them, Listen, do it for the next five people. If five people say no, the next month of the practice academy is on me. And guess what? I've never had to give a month for free. And so it's like, and then what happens? I mean, we always recommend going up by at least $25, if not $50, because of just the emotional, like when you go from $20, $125 to $130, there's nothing that you're like, woohoo, wow. I can you know buy an extra coffee. Whereas if you go up by $50 and you have 10 clients that do that, that's an extra two grand a month. When you're advising people on how to make that jump, how do you advise them on raising their rates? And what what other tactics do you uh give them?

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 20:14

I well, two things. One is I tell them give your clients warning, let them know that I'm gonna be making some changes to my business, and I want to share those with you. I want to let you know that as of this date, I'm going to be raising my rates, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And to understand right off the bat that your clients are going to be anxious. So this goes to what we were just talking about standing in your value. Your job there is to help them manage that anxiety, not by diminishing the value of what you bring, but by helping manage that transaction. So when I made my last big jump off of the, I used to have a full-fledged practice with all the insurance and all that kind of stuff. When I got away from that for good and made the decision one day that I was done with all that, I started telling my clients that day, I need to let you know, I've got some changes coming up in a few and in 90 days. I'm going to be raising my rates, blah, blah, blah, blah. But don't worry, we're going to take good care of you. And what I do is that means you've got we've got time to wrap up if this is not going to be, you know, if you're done here, we've got we got plenty of time to finish well, or we have time to find someone else if this isn't going to be a good fit for you anymore. But I also will offer packages. I often will offer packages for folks as a way of making that transition more manageable. And what I find is that people think they want that, but by the time we get to that transition, they don't really care anymore and they just pay the new rate. So one way or another, the whole point is we will find a way to make this work. But the way it's going to work is not by me, by me diminishing the value of what I bring.

Joe Sanok: 21:42

Love that.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 21:43

Which also kind of goes into the second thing I want to say about how this becomes a therapeutic issue. And that is even when we do own it, even we we do say this is what I charge, and we hold it, we do it with this energy that is apologetic. Oh, I'm sorry. So what do you what did you say your rates are? I'm sorry, it's um it's 175. Oh, oh. You know, like that guy that you just said that who had it had an attitude, who laughed. Our tendency is so easy, we will shrug our shoulders, we will literally physically shrink, we will tilt our head, we will change our voice if we're doing this on the phone, all of which is to apologize. And here's the thing that that does, besides minimizing your own value, it minimizes the value of what your clients are doing for themselves. When they hire you, they are investing in themselves and in their results through you. And that is something to celebrate. So I, if I have a client who like winces a little bit, but they come through, I'm like, man, I know this is a big deal. I know this is tough. And I'm so proud of you for making this decision because what you're telling me is that you believe you're worth it. And that's something I'm gonna celebrate right here with you. And I mean that. Like it's a big deal for them to choose to spend this. You see this all the time with moms who will spend that kind of money on their kids or their marriages or whatever, you know, something else in their family, but not for themselves. What's not to celebrate when they say, you know what, I'm worth it. I'm gonna do this. Like I love that. So show up without apology, which is uh it's a variation of what we were just talking about, but it's every bit as important to the therapy. Yay for you for doing this for yourself, client. I'm proud of you.

Joe Sanok: 23:24

So awesome. And you said there's a third one, the we've got undercharging, apologetic energy.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 23:29

Yeah. And then the last one kind of ties all that together, which is that we tend to avoid difficult conversations altogether. So what you were just talking about, like I've got to raise my rates, that's a difficult conversation. That's one. I've made a decision to drop a few insurance companies. That's a difficult conversation. But also people who owe you, who no-showed last week and they owe you, I hope, full fee for that session.

Joe Sanok: 23:54

Yes, preach it when I have a beef about that. But I'm with you. We both have beefs about that.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 24:00

Yeah, I can really get on a soapbox. Your time is worth what your time is worth. But those difficult conversations, like how we're going to manage your account, if you avoid talking about that in a session face to face with your client, I guarantee you they're thinking about it, whether you, whether they say it out loud or not. So if you don't talk about it with them, all you're doing, honestly, is making your discomfort their discomfort. Your discomfort becomes theirs. And that's the last thing we want to do to a client. What do we do in our work? We bring whatever the hard thing is into the room, right? We nail whatever the issue is that no one wants to talk about, but everybody's thinking about. We bring that into the space between us and we work, we work on it. This is every bit part of that as anything else. So I'll tell you one of the most dramatic examples I've seen of this. Um, one of my early coaching clients, when I was first getting started with the coaching, was a therapist in a city near me who was who had taken on a second job to supplement the income she was making in her private practice because she wasn't she wasn't making enough to cover to make ends meet. And once we started diving into specifics about specific clients and her pricing structure, she was working with someone who was struggling with addiction. I've done a ton of addiction work, I get that. And she did not have, quote, the heart, unquote, to charge this client her copays, which had been building up over time. Copays, missed sessions, all the things. And at the time we were talking, that client owed her something like $1,500. And we had a hard conversation about enabling, right?

Joe Sanok: 25:43

Yeah.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 25:43

Right. And which someone working with addiction is going to get that. It took her a few, it took her a little while to get up the nerve to do what I was teaching her to do, but she did implement the changes we wanted to change to make. We had she had that hard conversation. And in that process, I love the therapy side of this. What she was saying to her client was, not only you owe me this, honey, and you need to pay it, but I believe in your ability to pay it. I know life is hard, but I trust you. That's the kind of relationship we have. And I know you want to make good on this. So let's come up with a plan about how you can do that. And she did indeed implement that. That client did indeed pay her what they owed. And my client, the therapist, was able to let go of that second job because this, of course, that filtered through all of her work. And the end she ended up buying a building. It was really, really dramatic. And I didn't even work with her that long. It was, it was just, it was one of the, you know, I thought about that story thing about talking to you today. I'm like, I'd completely forgotten about that, but it was one of my proudest moments. And it came from treating her client with respect and treating herself with respect. That's that's what money does in a therapeutic relationship.

Joe Sanok: 26:59

I'm wondering with with so many tech automations. So it's like if I think about my own um therapist, you know, it's all in the EHR where I've put my credit card in there securely. It just charges the $35 per session for the the copay. And we don't ever talk about money. Is something being lost by having that in there? Or is that just aligning with how the medical world kind of is? Like, you know, if I take my daughter to the ophthalmologist, they've got the card on file, they bill it. I don't go back and forth with them about the rate or even think about that. Um, if there's something private pay, um, usually I, you know, just you know, with a massage therapist, for example, you know, they may have a package where I buy 10 of them, and then they just I don't talk about the money, I don't think about it. Um, is something being lost or is it good because we're kind of moving into what the rest of the medical world is like?

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 27:52

Uh, that's a really great question. I think it's a little bit of both. Um I will say, like, sh I'm a huge fan of automation. I use systems in all kinds of ways. Um, and yeah, that does kind of get you out of the icky part that day of collecting payment on the site, on the spot, or running, you know, running their card through your system, whatever. And it does absolutely sort of limit your the cost to you of missed payments for sure. However, I'm gonna caution people be careful not to look at that as a crutch and use it as a chance as a way to avoid this conversation. Because somewhere along the way, that card's gonna fail. If that something's gonna go wrong, they're gonna, you know, something will happen somewhere along the way. So I do encourage you from the beginning to make sure this is an active part of your engagement. And it can be just that every now and then you say, by the way, I just want to thank you. Your card's working great. I really appreciate the work that we're doing together. It's really an honor. Um, it can be things like you're still gonna raise your rates every so often, so you got to have that conversation. It can be um, oh, I don't know, there's probably all kinds of ways it's still gonna come up. The thing I would be worried about, yes, use automation, it makes your life easier, but don't use it as a crutch to avoid talking to your clients about the value of their investment with you. And don't use it to avoid the hard conversations you may have to have from time to time. I think that's where I'll go with that. Yeah.

Joe Sanok: 29:18

Yeah. You know, one thing I learned about rates um from Jamie Masters, who uh she has the Eventual Millionaire podcast, and um, since I did consulting with her, has become a friend, um, is she encourages this line, did that give you a heart attack? Which I actually used in my um private practice and I still use with my consulting, where I'll say my rate, I'll take a breath, and then I'll say, Did that give you a heart attack? And then if they say, No, no, I always I literally use the same joke and people laugh every time, I then say, Well, I can raise your rates if you want me to. And they're like, Oh no, Joe, I'll take that rate. Um, or if they say, Yeah, that's pretty far outside of what I was expecting, assuming that that is done in a respectful way, where they're not like laughing in my face like the person the other day, then that's an opportunity for a downsell into something that's a little bit cheaper, like the Practice Academy. Um, in in counseling, how important do you think it is for people if if they have their set rate and someone says, Oh, that's outside of my budget? Should they have some sort of cheaper thing to downsell people into? Maybe a group that's a you know, six-person group with the same topic, kind of e-courses, things like that. Or does that feel like uh it's a that's that's not really what the therapy world should be doing?

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 30:28

Oh my gosh, that's totally what the therapy world should be doing. Yeah. So that pillar number three, product, right? There's a lot of ways to serve, y'all. There's a lot of ways to serve. And one of the things that you do, Joe, that I love when we when you and I had a conversation for my podcast the other day, you took one client and talked about all the different ways that you could serve them at different stages of their journey before they ever find you, when they first find you, when they wrap up with you, all the different ways around the core work that you could serve them. So I am a huge, yes, think creatively, think outside the box. And going back to where we started, where I said I don't really believe in competition, in my group practice. So I ran a group practice for 25 years. And uh, we always had 10 or 12 providers. We were the go-to service in my town for all that time. And I used to, the the thing that we said as a practice all the time was we want you to get what you need, no matter whether that's with us or somebody else. So if we can help you, that's great. If not, we will help find help you find somebody. And we did do that. We did that religiously and we had a reputation because we were focusing on service, period. But I would say as a creative entrepreneur, number one, sure, have a solid referral list and don't be afraid to send them somewhere else if you're not right for them, whether for whatever the reason is. But also think creatively courses, workshops, groups, intensives, um, packages. There's like so many different ways to serve, to find creative ways to make it make it work, but always doing it in a way that's respectful of them and of you.

Joe Sanok: 32:03

Yeah. So awesome. Wendy, the last question I have is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 32:11

You know, I want them to know a lot, right?

Joe Sanok: 32:14

I know you do.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 32:17

I I think the main thing I would say is like give yourself permission to experiment, give yourself permission to try things. It really is your business. Your when I talk about an ideal practice, what's ideal for you is gonna be different than what's ideal for somebody else. And it's gonna change over time. So test things, try things, mess up, figure out what works for you. And every time you get it figured out, you're gonna want to change it again anyway. So don't do that. But what I really want to say is more than anything else, don't run away from the money side of your business. Don't run away from that because that's the foundation of a successful business, a successful practice, and it's the foundation of mutual respect between you and your clients. So treat it that way. That's what I'm gonna say.

Joe Sanok: 33:01

So awesome. Now I know you have a mini course that you're offering people, you're giving a discount of $50 off using promo code JOE, moving up from $97 to $47. Tell us about this mini course and uh what they'd get out of it.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 33:15

Thank you. It's such a fun little thing. Uh Amy Amy Portafeld would call it a small but mighty little course. It sure is. It's it's called Mind Over Money, um, which is perfect for what we're talking about today, which is why I decided to offer this. Um it is normally 97. If you use the promo code Joe, you can get it for 47, so 50 bucks off. You and it what it is, is it's it's almost like a daily inspiration with a lesson. Five minutes a day, literally five minutes a day, you'll get in your inbox a little a story, a little bit of a lesson, something to try, something to change the way you think about money every day for 31 days. It comes with audio as well, if you'd rather just listen to it while you're walking the dog. It's meant to be fun, light, easy, but it will shift the way you pay attention to money in your life. And I have people tell me that they miss it when it stops because it's thoughtful and encouraging and also like it's gonna it will change the way you approach things. And there's, you know, there's a little bit of strategy built into that, but mostly I'm trying to change the way you look at and pay attention to your relationship with money every day. So it's called mind over money. The way you get it is go to my website, Wendy Pitts, with an S, Wendy PittsReeves.com forward slash mind as a mind never money, and use the promo code Joe, and you'll get it for 47. Easy peasy.

Joe Sanok: 34:37

That's so awesome. And we'll have links to that on the show notes. Uh Wendy, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Wendy Pitts Reeves: 34:42

Absolutely. Thank you. And there you have it. So what'd you think? Did you guys enjoy that? I hope you did. Just listening to it all over again myself. I am so struck by how well some of the stories that Joe had to share fit with some of the concepts that I wanted to teach you today. And you know why that happens. It happens because these stories, these issues, these ways that we trip over ourselves in our practice are universal. Like Joe has seen it, I've seen it, and I've done it over and over and over again. So there's a reason why this stuff tends to resonate when I talk to other therapists. I hope hearing this conversation has given you some new ideas, some new perspectives on different aspects of your practice. We covered a lot fast. And maybe you can celebrate, maybe you'll feel a little bit better because you're doing better than you even realized in your role already as a practice owner. That said, if you need a little help, by all means, please reach out. I work with practice owners in a couple of ways. Here at Ideal Practice, I do offer coaching for practice owners. And we can do just a one-time consult if you want. The best way to learn about that is to go to my website, wendypitzreeves.com, and click on the start here button, and you'll learn more about that. I also want you to know that even in my counseling work, which I still have a small counseling practice, I am beginning to work more and more with practice owners there as well, because it's hard to find a good therapist who understands what it takes to run a business. And I have been touched actually by some folks who've been reaching out to me more and more often these days, specifically because of that. So there's lots of ways I can help you. Whatever you do, reach out, learn, grow, be patient with yourself, hold on to your sense of humor, and know that you got this because you do. I have absolutely no doubt. And with that, have a great week, everybody, and I will see you next time, right here on the Ideal Practice Podcast. Bye now. Hey y'all, if this program has become important to you, if ideal practice matters, it would mean so much to me if you'd be willing to take just a minute to do one or two of the following things. First of all, would you follow or subscribe to the show here at Ideal Practice? Following me helps you because you'll never miss an episode. But it helps me as well for all kinds of reasons. To do that, all you have to do is go to the show page for Ideal Practice on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. There, just click on the plus sign that you'll usually find in the top right hand corner, or click on the word follow that you're gonna find somewhere there on that page. Of all the things, this really is the most important thing you can do for the podcast itself. While you're there, it would be extra special if you would be willing to give me a five-star rating and even better than that, a review with your own words. Your words matter. And when you write what you feel, what you think, you uplift and encourage others. And I love that. If you want to go a step further than that, take your favorite episode or two, one of the ones that has meant a lot to you, and share it with a friend. Could you do one or two of those things for me? I promise I will love you forever. You guys matter to me, and I value your support more than I can possibly say. Thank you, sweet friend, for anything you can do to help me out and support the show. I'll see you again soon.